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http://www.casainho.net/tiki-index.php? ... +turntable
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/68188 ... ption.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6818815.html
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Midi out signal
I don't see any disadvantages at all to midi being restricted to only 128 steps.
Firstly 128 steps = 128 frames at least! One step of midi data assigned per frame of the clip. This would allow for a whole 5 seconds of clip to be scratched, which is plenty! Enough to scratch a spoken phrase for example. you could even loop a continual tone & short clip infanatly.
Secondly midi being steppy has been solved in other apps for a long time now, for example in FL Studio they have a feature called midi smoothing. What this does is it fill's in the gaps in the midi signal, efectivly smoothing it in to a hi res signal, there is a time trade off though as there is extra processing involved however, I know from expierience this isn't such a bad thing when Q'ing Vynil you get used to it pretty quickly.
Another point I would like to add is that although there re only 128 chunks of data in midi signals, continual rotary controller knobs do offer greator presicion, I imagine a time coded vynil record would replicate a continul rotary controller almost exactly, though still only between these 128 steps.
I'm sorry I can't be of any technical help as I don't know how to programme max msp but I think thist is a great idea and something has got to be done about it, can you imagine the possibilies that this would open up for us all, for example being able to "Scratch" the perameters of an effect like the depth of a Flanger, whilst simaltainiously scratching the audio and visuals of a film clip and Visual effects as well! It would allow us far more creativity then any of the other apps on the market are offering currently but you can bet it's on all of their to do lists
Has this got under way yet? is the idea in development? any estimation of time till it arives etc?
Firstly 128 steps = 128 frames at least! One step of midi data assigned per frame of the clip. This would allow for a whole 5 seconds of clip to be scratched, which is plenty! Enough to scratch a spoken phrase for example. you could even loop a continual tone & short clip infanatly.
Secondly midi being steppy has been solved in other apps for a long time now, for example in FL Studio they have a feature called midi smoothing. What this does is it fill's in the gaps in the midi signal, efectivly smoothing it in to a hi res signal, there is a time trade off though as there is extra processing involved however, I know from expierience this isn't such a bad thing when Q'ing Vynil you get used to it pretty quickly.
Another point I would like to add is that although there re only 128 chunks of data in midi signals, continual rotary controller knobs do offer greator presicion, I imagine a time coded vynil record would replicate a continul rotary controller almost exactly, though still only between these 128 steps.
I'm sorry I can't be of any technical help as I don't know how to programme max msp but I think thist is a great idea and something has got to be done about it, can you imagine the possibilies that this would open up for us all, for example being able to "Scratch" the perameters of an effect like the depth of a Flanger, whilst simaltainiously scratching the audio and visuals of a film clip and Visual effects as well! It would allow us far more creativity then any of the other apps on the market are offering currently but you can bet it's on all of their to do lists
Has this got under way yet? is the idea in development? any estimation of time till it arives etc?
Zargak wrote:I don't see any disadvantages at all to midi being restricted to only 128 steps.
Firstly 128 steps = 128 frames at least! One step of midi data assigned per frame of the clip. This would allow for a whole 5 seconds of clip to be scratched, which is plenty! Enough to scratch a spoken phrase for example. you could even loop a continual tone & short clip infanatly.
It seems to be insufficient to fast scratching or accurate tracking. The idea is to send useful data to host or plugins or hardware (trought real midi/osc ports). Solutions suchs serato and stanton scs.1d are working in their own protocol for two reasons. The first is make their solutions closed, the second are the midi protocol limitations (because is serial and slow)
But don't worry there are a Tooltablister community working to solve all these paradigms. As midi only sysex data has the necessary 10 bit resolution.
I don't know nothing about that. Could you share a link or example please?Zargak wrote:Secondly midi being steppy has been solved in other apps for a long time now, for example in FL Studio they have a feature called midi smoothing. What this does is it fill's in the gaps in the midi signal, efectivly smoothing it in to a hi res signal, there is a time trade off though as there is extra processing involved however, I know from expierience this isn't such a bad thing when Q'ing Vynil you get used to it pretty quickly.
Zargak wrote:Another point I would like to add is that although there re only 128 chunks of data in midi signals, continual rotary controller knobs do offer greator presicion, I imagine a time coded vynil record would replicate a continul rotary controller almost exactly, though still only between these 128 steps.
Sure but it is not enough for advanced scratching. This is the system used in solutions like Hercules and so on. If you are used them and vinyl DVS you will understand the difference.
Don't worry about tech data, start to learn (like me)Zargak wrote:I'm sorry I can't be of any technical help as I don't know how to programme max msp but I think thist is a great idea and something has got to be done about it, can you imagine the possibilies that this would open up for us all, for example being able to "Scratch" the perameters of an effect like the depth of a Flanger, whilst simaltainiously scratching the audio and visuals of a film clip and Visual effects as well! It would allow us far more creativity then any of the other apps on the market are offering currently but you can bet it's on all of their to do lists
About possibilities:
Yes I was purchased her five years ago with all these ideas in my mind but now is when the people are demanding it (and help Ms. P developers)
In the evolution of the software Scott has a lot of work done and a lot to do.
We (the community) must help him and share our ideas and founds if we want to do Ms.P the best solution in the market.
Scott?Zargak wrote:Has this got under way yet? is the idea in development? any estimation of time till it arives etc?
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Mudo means mute person.
Researching new interface paradigms
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Mudo means mute person.
Researching new interface paradigms
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This is an excellent thread by the way mundo
Hmmm, shouldn't be difficult, however there is very little documentation even at FL, Tell you what if you download the demo version of FL studio, I can set up a simple project to demonstrate it for you, it would only take a few clicks of the mouse, for each of us.
Are you sure? I've never had any problems with slowdown using midi, I can appreciate that there are latency isues, but these are normally on the part of the processor, not through any restrictions in the midi ports, cables or signal itself. I can easilly send faster automation through midi then the human hand could produce and with only around 4 ms latancey.Mudo wrote: It seems to be insufficient to fast scratching or accurate tracking.
Mudo wrote:
I don't know nothing about that. Could you share a link or example please?
Hmmm, shouldn't be difficult, however there is very little documentation even at FL, Tell you what if you download the demo version of FL studio, I can set up a simple project to demonstrate it for you, it would only take a few clicks of the mouse, for each of us.
Not sure but it is the most common answer when I talk about this. It seems be caused by serial part of midi.Zargak wrote:This is an excellent thread by the way mundo
Are you sure? I've never had any problems with slowdown using midi, I can appreciate that there are latency isues, but these are normally on the part of the processor, not through any restrictions in the midi ports, cables or signal itself. I can easilly send faster automation through midi then the human hand could produce and with only around 4 ms latancey..Mudo wrote: It seems to be insufficient to fast scratching or accurate tracking.
Of course, please send me a pm with mail or skype.Zargak wrote:Mudo wrote:
I don't know nothing about that. Could you share a link or example please?
Hmmm, shouldn't be difficult, however there is very little documentation even at FL, Tell you what if you download the demo version of FL studio, I can set up a simple project to demonstrate it for you, it would only take a few clicks of the mouse, for each of us.
I'm from Barcelona and Speak spanish too.
And you?
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Mudo means mute person.
Researching new interface paradigms
...
Mudo means mute person.
Researching new interface paradigms
...
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dlpinkstah
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Does anyone know how many ticks per rotation the typical jogwheels give you?
I gather from various sources that the way many programs (MixVibes, Traktor, etc.) respond to jogwheels is via CC messages of the form 64 +/- (some number of ticks of the jogwheel). So if the jogwheel moved forwards 10 ticks in the period covered, the CC value transmitted will be 74. If the jogwheel moves backwards 10 ticks in the same time, the transmitted value will be 54. So to translate turntable rotation to this sort of message, I need to know how many ticks there are around one full rotation of the jogwheel. I'm assuming it's no more than 128?
I gather from various sources that the way many programs (MixVibes, Traktor, etc.) respond to jogwheels is via CC messages of the form 64 +/- (some number of ticks of the jogwheel). So if the jogwheel moved forwards 10 ticks in the period covered, the CC value transmitted will be 74. If the jogwheel moves backwards 10 ticks in the same time, the transmitted value will be 54. So to translate turntable rotation to this sort of message, I need to know how many ticks there are around one full rotation of the jogwheel. I'm assuming it's no more than 128?
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dlpinkstah
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Beta version of Maxi-Patch_AO (3.6.9) now ready for testing
OK, I guess we can just leave the "ticks per rotation of jogwheel" as a user-defined variable....
If any of you OSX Ms Pinky users are ready to try something, please download the beta version of Maxi-Patch_AO 3.6.9. There is now a new tabbed view, and one of the tabs is "MIDI out". Under this tab you will find controls for selecting available MIDI out devices, and enabling either of the two "modes" of MIDI Output I've come up:
Mode 1: MIDI CC (Control Change) Output -- in this mode, MIDI CC messages are sent out on the device you choose, on the channel and controller number that you specify. The frequency with which these CC messages are sent is also specified by you. You also specify the "ticks per rotation" to match the characteristics of the jogwheel you're using. The MIDI CC messages are constructed like this: when the turntable is stopped, the value output is 64. When the turntable spins forward, the value is greater than 64. When the turntable spins in reverse, the value is less than 64. The amount by which it is greater or less than 64 depends on how many "ticks per rotation" you set, and how often you set the CC messages to be sent, and of course it also depends on the speed of the record on your turntable. You will probably have to experiment a bit with all these values to get something that works.
Mode 2: MIDI Beat CLock Output -- in this mode, you set a "Target BPM". If you need it, there is a little "Tap Tempo" calculator just below that can help you calculate your target BPM. After you enter your Target BPM, you'll see that the turntable speed modulates this Target BPM up or down, depending on the pitch of playback. You can set various parameters of the MIDI CLock output -- for example, I found that with Ableton it works quite well to set "Divisions of a whole note" to 96.
Each of these two modes can be engaged or disengaged independently. To specify the output device for each mode, double-click on the little "midiout" box underneath the section that has the controls for each mode.
OK, I'll be waiting to hear if anyone thinks this is useful and/or if it works....
If any of you OSX Ms Pinky users are ready to try something, please download the beta version of Maxi-Patch_AO 3.6.9. There is now a new tabbed view, and one of the tabs is "MIDI out". Under this tab you will find controls for selecting available MIDI out devices, and enabling either of the two "modes" of MIDI Output I've come up:
Mode 1: MIDI CC (Control Change) Output -- in this mode, MIDI CC messages are sent out on the device you choose, on the channel and controller number that you specify. The frequency with which these CC messages are sent is also specified by you. You also specify the "ticks per rotation" to match the characteristics of the jogwheel you're using. The MIDI CC messages are constructed like this: when the turntable is stopped, the value output is 64. When the turntable spins forward, the value is greater than 64. When the turntable spins in reverse, the value is less than 64. The amount by which it is greater or less than 64 depends on how many "ticks per rotation" you set, and how often you set the CC messages to be sent, and of course it also depends on the speed of the record on your turntable. You will probably have to experiment a bit with all these values to get something that works.
Mode 2: MIDI Beat CLock Output -- in this mode, you set a "Target BPM". If you need it, there is a little "Tap Tempo" calculator just below that can help you calculate your target BPM. After you enter your Target BPM, you'll see that the turntable speed modulates this Target BPM up or down, depending on the pitch of playback. You can set various parameters of the MIDI CLock output -- for example, I found that with Ableton it works quite well to set "Divisions of a whole note" to 96.
Each of these two modes can be engaged or disengaged independently. To specify the output device for each mode, double-click on the little "midiout" box underneath the section that has the controls for each mode.
OK, I'll be waiting to hear if anyone thinks this is useful and/or if it works....
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dlpinkstah
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Give credit where credit is due --> Cycling - '74!
Windoze version to follow quite soon, thanks to Max/MSP being cross-platform.
I really need to make it clear who deserves credit for this. The only way I was able to do this is because Max/MSP makes it sooooooo easy
The geniuses at Cycling-'74 have been working for over 20 years to make this kind of thing possible!! They are really the ones who deserve credit for this, certainly not me.
And of course, MUDO deserves credit for pestering me NON-STOP for at least 6 months before I even did anything about it... ¡qué pesadito eres!
Also-- having MIDI out just for the sake of having MIDI out is no good. I need you all to start doing some really cool things with this!!!!!
The CC and Beat Clock out is only the tip of the iceberg as far as what info we can output in the future.
I really need to make it clear who deserves credit for this. The only way I was able to do this is because Max/MSP makes it sooooooo easy
The geniuses at Cycling-'74 have been working for over 20 years to make this kind of thing possible!! They are really the ones who deserve credit for this, certainly not me.
And of course, MUDO deserves credit for pestering me NON-STOP for at least 6 months before I even did anything about it... ¡qué pesadito eres!
Also-- having MIDI out just for the sake of having MIDI out is no good. I need you all to start doing some really cool things with this!!!!!
The CC and Beat Clock out is only the tip of the iceberg as far as what info we can output in the future.
Yaay Mudo!!!
Well gonna try:
Tcv midi out > Flanger depth (thats gonna sound awsome!)
Tcv midi out > to realtime pitch changer and also time stretch (so as visual clips slow down the audi pitch stays put but sttrrrreeeeettchhhes out, sick!)
Tcv midi out > XYZ Clip Rotation (naturaly)
Probably some stuf like this too . . . http://eborelease.wordpress.com/2007/08 ... remasterd/
And the rest!
You guy's might be interested in the stuff Kristopher Collins is doing, he uses Time coded vynil > midi at Amon Tobins gigs.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h5dJgjHSx ... re=related
Well gonna try:
Tcv midi out > Flanger depth (thats gonna sound awsome!)
Tcv midi out > to realtime pitch changer and also time stretch (so as visual clips slow down the audi pitch stays put but sttrrrreeeeettchhhes out, sick!)
Tcv midi out > XYZ Clip Rotation (naturaly)
Probably some stuf like this too . . . http://eborelease.wordpress.com/2007/08 ... remasterd/
And the rest!
You guy's might be interested in the stuff Kristopher Collins is doing, he uses Time coded vynil > midi at Amon Tobins gigs.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h5dJgjHSx ... re=related
Can you guy's clear something up for me?
I'm using Reslolume 3 to play my clips, over the top of these clips I want to scratch a layer of video (within Resolume 3 if possinle) So Res 3 will be providing the background shot (the plate) and the scratching in the forground layers controled by ms pinky's tcv via it's midi send.
Resolume 3 can host VST's, is there a possiblility that this may be of benefit to me? Could I use pinky plugo in Resolume 3 to then send midi to the layers in Res 3 that I want to scratch? Assides from that what do you guys think might be the best solution for me?
maxi patch midi out to layers in Resolume? or something else?
I'm using Reslolume 3 to play my clips, over the top of these clips I want to scratch a layer of video (within Resolume 3 if possinle) So Res 3 will be providing the background shot (the plate) and the scratching in the forground layers controled by ms pinky's tcv via it's midi send.
Resolume 3 can host VST's, is there a possiblility that this may be of benefit to me? Could I use pinky plugo in Resolume 3 to then send midi to the layers in Res 3 that I want to scratch? Assides from that what do you guys think might be the best solution for me?
maxi patch midi out to layers in Resolume? or something else?
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dlpinkstah
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Good. So can you tell me what exact type of MIDI information resolume needs in order to scratch video clips? Does it need CC's? Pitch-bend?Zargak wrote: I'm using Reslolume 3 to play my clips, over the top of these clips I want to scratch a layer of video (within Resolume 3 if possinle) So Res 3 will be providing the background shot (the plate) and the scratching in the forground layers controled by ms pinky's tcv via it's midi send.
Or is there a special SysEx message format for Resolume?
For now you should not count on having MIDI output from our VST plugin. It is not currently implemented, and it may be a while before we can do that. We are currently concentrating only on getting MIDI output from the Maxi-Patch_AO/AV applications.Zargak wrote: Resolume 3 can host VST's, is there a possiblility that this may be of benefit to me? Could I use pinky plugo in Resolume 3 to then send midi to the layers in Res 3 that I want to scratch?
So my recommendation is that you use Maxi-Patch_AO (audio-only) for now to generate MIDI output that you can then get Resolume to use for controlling clips. We just have to know exactly what type of MIDI to send Resolume.